Food Safety Talk 67: John Bassett

In this episode Don talks with John Bassett. The scene opens with a vivid description of a picturesque English village with pigeons pooping on the eaves and birds chirping in the background.

John starts by telling the listeners a bit about his background. He is a veterinarian by training, having earned his degree in New Zealand.  He spent seven years as a veterinary practitioner; a bit like that depicted in All Creatures Great and Small in Epsom (that’s in England). John returned to New Zealand and began a small animal practice but quickly transitioned to work for a government biosecurity laboratory in Wellington (that’s in New Zealand) where he solved problems during extended coffee breaks taken in trendy cafes. John got his start in risk assessment using the OIE approach.  John’s next career move was to industry as a risk assessor with Unilever; this took him back to England (that’s in the United Kingdom).  The guys got sidetracked and discussed the sole-crushing bureaucracy that can be found in big industry (not that there’s anything wrong with that).  John’s latest career change finds him in a new mode as food safety consultant. 

The guys discussed the recent Chobani mold incident.  From here the conversation jumped into tea.  Iced tea with added sugar was discussed as a possible growth medium for generic E. coli (special concern was expressed for sun-brewed tea) and the potential for herbal (pronounced ‘erbal’ by some) tea as a source of bacteria and maybe pathogens. 

John talked about some of his current risk assessment work, and the difficulty of making risk management decisions for low-frequency events.  John explains his recent interest in Gael Risk assessment techniques. This approach can be used for semi-quantitative risk assessment, and may have value in preventing problems like the recent horse-meat food scandal.  The value of audits in science-based food safety was questioned and discussed, and Don and John disagreed about the value of semi-quantitative risk assessments. 

Bandwidth on John’s end starts to suffer (perhaps due to John’s kids arrival home from school) so the conversation is paused briefly, while John (the poopy-head) sorts it out. 

The show resumes with a discussion on whether HACCP is risk based or not.  John notes that one key to “selling” a risk assessment might be based on saving money in the long run, perhaps from a reduced need for testing and auditing.  A discussion of the Elliott Review takes place before the guys re-iterate the need for using computerized systems for effective traceback in the food supply chain; especially ones that do not need to be linked via paper documents. 

John mentions that he will not be at IAFP 2014 due to lack of a wealthy sponsor; but he does plan to attend the IAFP European Symposium in Cardiff in 2015. Don reveals his IAFP presidential party plans (Beer, Bourbon, and BBQ), while John contemplates pork ribs somewhere closer to home. 

John mentioned the use of the sear and shave technique to produce safer raw burgers in the UK.  Don didn’t seem convinced, and will continue using his iGrill and tip sensitive digital thermometer, as suggested for use in previous Food Safety Talk episodes, “because everyone’s gotta have a hobby”.  Both guys reminisced over outbreaks of Campylobacter jejuni from seared chicken livers that occurred in the UK and USA.

In the After Dark portion, Don transitioned into talking about Doctor Who, and John explained he was late for the podcast meeting because of a meeting with McDonald’s own Bizhan Pourkomailian.

Food Safety Talk 66: The IAFP special with Dr. Freeze

Ben and Don were on location in Indianapolis at the International Association for Food Protection annual meeting and the show kicks off with Don’s discussion of his script and playbook for the IAFP meeting. 

Don ate dinner at a place (Harry and Izzy's) that is not St. Elmo’s Fire and the guys decided that Rob Lowe looks the same as he did in 1986. Ben discussed his rule of three drinks, and Don does not subscribe to the same rule - which led to some tiredness.

The guys were joined by Dr. Freeze who is not to be confused by Canada’s king of icees, Mr. Freeze. In discussing Ben’s new found obsession with the number 3 (like Jack White), Don shares 5ives, Merlin Mann’s list of fives (including #3 on the list of 5 guitarists who rock the three-note solo).

Don’s continued use of his IAFP playbook as a prop leads to a discussion of Dungeons and Dragon’s, Canadianisms and the renaming of IAFP as science prom (where Don and Ben may take their bromance to the next level).

Don alluded to the Florida Association for Food Protection’s requirement that Don dress up as a roach. A talk of accents let to a discussion of one of Ben’s current obsessions, FX’s Fargo with Martin Freeman.

The group recapped Indianapolis happenings including Food Safety Talk guest Bill Marler's Ivan Parkin Lecture and the Oregonian’s Lynne Terry filing stories and tweeting from the meeting. The discussion went into some of the opportunities and challenges of having media actively attending sessions. The topic turned to non-traditional media, the 24 hour news cycle and clickbait lists including Buzzfeed. Don told a story about how a clip of him talking about food safety in China ended up on Al Jazeera.

An age old discussion about the media (and others) getting science wrong led to Ben talking about an anonymous Twitter feed called IAFP no context. The discussion went into the War of 1812 (also known as the one that Canada won).

In the After Dark the group talked about the Grateful Dead, handy folks and carpenters.  

Food Safety Talk 65: All My Ports are Engaged

In this episode, Ben is absent, but Don is not alone. Mike Batz, Assistant Director of Food Safety Programs, Emerging Pathogen Institute at the University of Florida, is a guest on the show. He appeared not once, but twice on the podcast before.

Don and Mike start by talking a little about their travels, then, they quickly move to a discussion on the Chobani Yogurt recall. The news article leaves Mike unsure whether Mucor circinelloides was pathogenic to both animals and humans. A brief digression about podcast listening speed reveals that Batz listens at 1.5 speed while Don is more civilized. Returning to yogurt, they discuss the original mBio article. Don concludes the study did not provide enough evidence to show M. circinelloides is truely pathogenic to humans.

Don asks Mike about a psychology experiment done by Facebook where they manipulated users feeds. Mike was disappointed by Facebook’s methodology since the study never requested an informed consent from the users. They then rambled about again about their various and sundry international travels. Mike resided close to the Rijks Museum (that's in Amsterdam) for a while and Schaffner shared his experience in Finland (including reindeer tartare) and New Zealand (and beef tartare).

Next, they talked about a document from the FAO marketed as providing a list of the top 10 foodborne parasites ). To continue, they discussed seasonal food safety tips. While Mike confessed to not always follow his own food safety recommendations, Don revealed he is reluctant to eat a cut cantaloupe by a stranger.

Soon after, the discussion shifted to antibiotics in meat. Both agreed that the issue is quite complicated and there is not a straight forward answer.

They concluded the show with a discussion on cross contamination including cutting boards, artisanal cheese and the 5 second rule. Don recommended plastic cutting board for meat and wood cutting board for any other food types.

Food Safety Talk 64: The One With Doug

In a special episode recorded back before Ben went on summer hiatus, the guys invite Doug Powell on for a chat.  According to Wikipedia (which is never wrong), Dr. Douglas Powell was raised in Brantford, Ontario (that's in Canada). Doug describes himself as a former professor of food safety and the publisher of barfblog.com. He is passionate about food, has five daughters, and is an OK goaltender in pickup hockey.

These days Doug is been thinking a lot about soul, and given the Venn diagram of their intersecting musical tastes this leads to a discussion of Mr. Soul and a place where even Richard Nixon has got soul. Any discussion of music and soul leads to a mention of the classic Soul Man, which Don knows from the Blues Brothers movie, and Doug knows from the original version by Sam and Dave. Doug is thinking about soul because of his monthly writing gig for the Texas A&M Center for food safety. The piece he was ruminating on during the call led to a post called "It's Gotta Have Soul" where his central thesis is that most people talking about food safety lack relevance; they lack soul, and fail to resonate.

After the guys bid Doug good night, the discussion turns to managing graduate students, task tracking software like OmniFocus, distracting diversions like Flappy Bird, managing references using Sente or Mendeley and a brief look forward to this special events which are coming, or rather were coming, at the IAFP annual meeting.

Food Safety Talk 63: The Great One

Don and Ben have Skype issues but this time it was actually Don. Don announced that there will be help for people like Ben who aren’t so good at managing their time and attention at IAFP 2014, with Merlin Mann presenting on Wednesday in a special lunch session. The guys estimate about 0.1% of IAFP annual meeting attendees will be excited to see him - including Ben and Don, and probably Batz. Ben mentions his excitement that Professor Dr. Donald Schaffner, PhD was name checked on Back to Work Episode 173.

The first mention of The Wire comes at 12 minutes in when the guys give a shout out to Baltimore resident Manan Sharma who has mentioned that this is his favorite part of the show.

In follow-up from Episode 61, friend of the show MDD says that there are not rats in Alberta  Ben and Don remark while there may not be any snakes in New Zealand and Ireland (although Ben thinks that Don is thinking of potatoes) there are rats in small pockets in Alberta. While Alberta has had a rat eradication program since the 1950s, a colony of Norwegian rats, of Roanoke Island proportion, was found in Medicine Hat (that's in Canada) in 2012 and 2014. Ben tells Don that he wears big pockets to avoid rats, and that and on a pilgrimage to Edmonton to see a statue of The Great One, his pockets were not checked.

The guys then talk about a question from IAFP’s Dina (not Dinah). Dina asked the guys to discuss their thoughts on a recent JFP paper about non-intact steak cooking using temperature, flipping/turning and different cooking methods. The practical, take-home message (as dictated using Dragon Dictate) was that that flipping and covering with a lid (which allows cooking to occur both through conduction and convection heat) and using a thermometer for all cuts of meat helps reduce risk.

Ben talked a bit about some future work that his group is doing looking at mechanically tenderized beef messaging, perception and behavior - including cubed steak.  Cube steak is sometimes made by slapping two pieces of meat together and running through a cuber - although not according to Wikipedia, which is never wrong. The discussion moved to steak eating preferences as detailed by FiveThirtyEight Nate Silver’s cadre of numbers nerds who dissect a lot of pop culture and sports questions.

The guys then both talked about message variability projects they have going on. Ben’s group is looking at  cook book recipes (and how the messages and instructions in the culinary world often are not evidence-based). And Don’s group is looking at messaging on handwashing signs, something that his second favorite graduate student Dane, is undertaking.

In outbreak flashback the guys talked about 1854’s Broad St. Pump  cholera outbreak. Using a map and analyzing cases of human disease, John Snow, largely recognized as one of the founders of epidemiology, created a blueprint for the next generation of disease hunters. Removing the handle on the pump is commonly thought to have ended the outbreak except that modern epi-curve analysis suggests that the outbreak was already on the decline. Ben’s favorite part was what one of his undergraduate professors, Anthony Clarke talked about in class 15 years ago: the monks in a local monastery did not get sick because they didn’t drink the water, just home brewed beer.

The guys then ended the show talking about an outbreak linked to food service hamburgers made by Wolverine Packing. Or is that Wolverine Packing with it's adamantium slicers and grinders? In either case, It’s unclear whether illnesses are linked to undercooked burgers or cross contamination - although anecdotally undercooked burgers have been reported. One of Ben’s graduate student’s Ellen Thomas has been working on a project related directly to this type of product, where secret shoppers have been speaking with servers at burger-serving family style restaurants throughout the U.S. The results of the project will be shared at IAFP in Indianapolis.

In after dark the guys chuckle and guffaw about Ben’s Beatles references, time and attention management, and Tony Robbins who Ben thinks is in prison. But he’s not. He was thinking of James Arthur Ray. Don mentions that the author Kurt Vonnegut (who explains the universal shapes of storytelling) has a memorial library in Indianapolis.

Food Safety Talk 62: Uncomfortably Numb

The show opens with Don talking about his visit to the dentist right before the podcast. The conversation turns to Don's dentist and his job satisfaction, and on to other important jobs, like airline pilots. Ben then talks about his talk in Nashville about behavior change and his first visit to the the Conference for Food Protection, which evolves into a discussion of handwashing and hot air hand dryers. The outbreak flashback segment is in the parking lot this week, but a listener question from the Bob and Melinda Gates foundation is not. Before the question is answered however, disco music, video games, author Alan Moore, the movie Mystery Men, the Keith Richards biography and YYZ must all be discussed. Eventually they get around to answering Bob's question regarding recalls and discuss the difference between recalls and market withdrawals From there the discussion moves to a Hershey's soy lethicin recall in Canada, FDA's reportable food registry, a Clostridium perfringens outbreak and a recent article from The Acheson Group blog. The show ends with a Pink Floyd reference, and in the After Dark, Don discusses the hazel app on his Mac.

Food Safety Talk 61: I Needed a Semenko

The show opened with a long discussion of various philosophical issues relating to careers in Academia, followed by a brief diversion into gutter cleaning drones, comiXology, and the new TV show Silicon Valley.

Ben shared he has been listening to Gord Downie, The Sadies, And The Conquering Sun. Downie will be familiar to FST podcast listeners as the Canadian rock musician, writer, occasional actor who is the lead singer and lyricist for the Canadian rock band The Tragically Hip. Don noted that he had backed the new Lee 'Scratch' Perry Album kickstarter project.

In the follow up segment the guys noted that a new show noter was still needed, before moving on to a listener question from Jon Kimble about the protective effect of wine in foodborne disease outbreaks. Ben also talked about his experiences at a raw milk conference he attended in Canada. Fortunately for Ben, Dave Semenko was not needed.

The Outbreak flashback segment of the show flash all the way back to the 1981 listeriosis outbreak linked to coleslaw made from cabbage fertilized with sheep manure. Ben noted that sheep were also one among many possible Listeria sources in Jensen farms outbreak, as also indicated by fashion plate and Apple guy, Dr. Lawrence Goodridge quoted in the story.

Ben wanted to talk about Hep A and Tevana, when the show finally started, because he is a mall rat. This led to a discussion about Hepatitis A vaccinations for Foodservice workers. While it might not be "cost effective", it still might be the right thing to do.

The discussion then turned to sous vide cooking, and a new product on the market, and Don's interactions with the reviewed.com reviewers as well as the product manufacturers in the comments. Don was less successful in leaving comments on a recent sous vide NPR blog post, but thanks to Doug, Don was able to weigh in on barfblog.

Don then quizzed Ben (who is from Canada), regarding whether he now lives in the South.

The show ended with a mention of the passing of noted self experimenter Seth Roberts, including the predictable reaction from hacker news. More on his cause of death has been provided on his blog, posted after FST recorded.

Food Safety Talk 60: Pour maple syrup on it

The guys start off the show discussing starting a food safety talk live morning show under the pseudonyms of Ace and Lefty. Ben tells Don that he’s watching an old Judd Aptow show, Undeclared  on Netflix. Don says he doesn’t even have time to watch Ben’s favorite Canadian show, the oft-mentioned The Newsroom. The guys then quickly celebrate their AARP episode birthday and talk about Ben’s dad love of medieval times and Medieval Times. Ben announces that he’s on his way to his hometown of Port Hope, Ontario (that’s in Canada) and will be watching Float Your Fanny Down the Ganny - a celebration commemorating a flood. Ben shares a recent dream that he had about the Conference for Food Protection and being uninvited.

In outbreak flashblack Don and Ben talked about a 2004 Salmonella outbreak associated with sliced roma tomatoes sold through Sheetz gas station delis. The Sheetz outbreak was notable from a lawsuit  and communication standpoint. Although it looked at as a teachable moment, Don and Ben evaluated and critiqued the messages that the Partnership for Food Safety Communication put out at the time of the outbreak.

The guys then talked about a restaurant inspection media exposes and their impacts, Don and Ben agree that they don’t always get it right but have a place. Ben’s friends Jim Chan and Dominic Losito both retired Public Health Inspectors, pulled back the curtain on inspections on a CBC show, Marketplace - that Ben also appeared on in 2008. Their discussion continued to disclosing and translating restaurant inspection results for the masses. Don provided some insight into his ongoing Rutger’s cafeteria food safety project and the potential impacts of having extra outside eyes on running a kitchen -- supplemented with micro sampling.

Ben then put Don to the test on a question he received on using vinegar as a sanitizer in a food business. Don passed the test.

In a short after dark, Don suggested a puzzle game, Monument Valley for Ben to check out.

Food Safety Talk 59: You're thinking of Goldmember

Don and Ben start the show talking about producing stuff, productivity, procrastinating and the excitement of being the bottleneck. Don then spoke about his love of treadmill writing using Dragon Dictate software. David Allen’s two-minute rule and Omnifocus (not to be confused with the five-second rule) also made another appearance. Don also hinted that a certain productivity expert may make an appearance at IAFP 2014. This information made Ben get excited and talk really fast. 

Ben talked about watching a documentary about The Improv and took away that food safety communicators and some comedians both benefit from studying storytelling. The guys talked about blocking off specific times in the day to practice your craft (whatever it is).

Don and Ben announced that the infamous Andreas would be leaving the show as master show note person. Don and Ben wished Andreas the best, made him a lifetime member of the Food Safety Talk family and expressed their gratitude to him as helping grow the show. He will be missed. Don also talked about Scott Hurd and Wilber Feagan, who both passed away within 24hrs. 

In the new segment, Outbreak Flashback, the guys discussed the 2007 Castleberry’s botulism outbreak and it’s impacts. Don stepped through an FDA investigation report that Bill Marler had on his blog and highlighted some of the lessons that can be taken away for microbiologists as well as industry members. 

The guys happened to be in Orlando at the same time and didn’t connect with each other in person. Don was speaking at the Florida Association for Food Protection and Ben was visiting with the National Registry of Food Safety Professionals folks about non-traditional food manager training.

Don and Ben then discussed a question about a New Jersey entrepreneur making and selling granola at a Pennsylvania farmers’ market.

At the end of the show Don gave Ben a statistics test on confidence intervals from Andrew Gelmen’s blog. Andrew is also the source of this excellent paper on storytelling.

In after dark the guys talked about green jellybeans, acne and setting up projects with a statistics person in advance.

Food Safety Talk 58: Where's my wallet?

The guys started the show admiring Ben's new computer, and his House of Clay beer, before talking about Don and Victoria Backham's treadmill desks, Ricky Gervais bathtub photos, dressing up like a realtor, and confidence intervals.

Don and Ben then welcomed Bill Marler to the show. Bill's notoriety started with the Jack-in-the-Box outbreak (documented in the book Poisoned). The discussion moved to the Jensen farm legal case, in particular, the criminal aspects of unknowingly shipping contaminated food and the involvement of service providers, i.e. auditors. The guys also discussed the impact on apportioning liability as a result of the recent North Carolina limiting farmers liability law. The conversation then turned to Salmonella and Foster Farm's chicken and no one could understand why there hadn't been a recall.

The guys then discussed Listeria and cantaloupes, including CDC's recommendations and Don's paper on "Modeling the growth of Listeria monocytogenes on cut cantaloupe, honeydew and watermelon."

After a short detour via the AVN Awards, Bill got the chance to explain why he generally doesn't take on norovirus cases and the lengths he goes to before taking on a case, using the Townsend Farm Hepatitis A outbreak as an example. The conversation then turned to auditors and what the impact of the Jensen Farm litigation case might be.

After saying farewell to Bill, Don and Ben talked about podcasting, including Lex Friedman, and Libsyn's Rob Walch.

In the after dark the guys chatted about House of Cards, True Detective, Ben's quirky Aussie accent, Malaysia Airlines flight 370 and Lost.

Food Safety Talk 57: My Own Tea Mule

The guys started the show by sharing some family traditions including watching Jeopardy and drinking Rooibos tea.

They then discussed some raw milk questions posed by raw milk producer. Don suggested that there was specific scientific evidence to answer many of them. He also wondered about the scientific basis of some of the information presented in a recent RMI webinar.

Don then shared that he'll be podcast cheating again on an upcoming Real Food Real Talk episode on cottage food. This episode is now published here. The guys then transitioned to a recent cheese related Listeriosis outbreak affecting members of the Hispanic community. While health authorities have released some information on illnesses and the product there are many questions that are still to be answered.

After a false start and then covering the last part of the IAFP History, the 2000's, Ben put out a call to listeners for important outbreaks and food safety landmarks that Ben and Don could discuss in the upcoming Outbreak Flashback segment. It will be groovy. And have a disco theme.

The guys then turned to pizza and Alton Brown, who Don went to see live. Alton had dropped the pizza base before cooking it and that got Don worried about what message this was sending. Ben was amused by Alton's Twitter feed and fascinated by his earlier career. While on the pizza topic, Ben found some really stretched science reporting of this research article. The press release reminded the guys of Betteridge's law of headlines. The answer is always no.

The discussion of media reminded Don of this Andrew Gelman post about how to get your university press release reprinted by The Washington Post. Don concluded that the best practices for engaging people are also despicable. Ben suggested sometimes science-types need to go to where people are engaged and sort of play the same game. To quote Merlin Mann from 43 Folders: "Joining a Facebook group about creative productivity is like buying a chair about jogging."

To finish off, Ben raised the issue of consumers not following label instructions, as was the case with E. coli in Nestle Toll House Cookie Dough. Ben wanted to know how consumers learn about products and how to use those products.

In the after dark the guys covered Picturelife, and Siri not having what Don was looking for, which he posted on Facebook.  

Food Safety Talk 56: Damned hard to make safe food

The guys started the show following up on the previous episode, the write up on David Gumpert's website and the comments on the Internet. Theresa Lam also reached out wanting to know more about the risks associated with bootleg versus regulated raw milk.

Despite raw milk drinker's hatred of epidemiologists, Don confessed that maybe he wants to be an epidemiologist, while Ben noted that he has admired them ever since the Jalapeno Saintpaul outbreak. Don also praised Petran, White and Hedberg, for their efforts to identify what items in a restaurant inspection were predictive of the possibility of an outbreak, and Ben's comments to USA Today on the topic.

A quick round of "I think you're thinking of" with Howard Dean, and Roger Dean, not to be confused with Roger Dean followed. The guys then hopped back in time with the whizzinator before moving on to food storage mistakes and tortilla safety as prompted by Listener John Kimble.

The guys covered the 1990's in the IAFP history segment, which also featured a discussion of 808, the Beastie Boys and the speed of Joe Walsh's Maserati. Ben identified the 1990's with the adoption of PFGE and rapid methods, while Don though the Mega Regs characterized the time. Ben recalled a recent discussion with Cathy Cutter about meat processing and how HACCP shaped other food safety regulations.

The discussion then turned to Norovirus, prompted by a couple of recent noro outbreaks on the "Explorer of the Seas" and the Caribbean Princess, the boat that Chris Gunter boarded. Unfortunately, Chris couldn't find out whether the hand sanitizer on the ship was the one that works, though he was assured that it was "alcohol based". Ben wrapped up the noro discussion with the MoChunk resort outbreak. The guys talked about Netflix in the short after dark.

Food Safety Talk 55: Damn Ignorant PhDs

But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me.

- Richard Feynman, 1918-1988

The guys started the show with a teaser about a guest later in the show and reminisced about past guests Mike Batz, Chris Gunter, Michelle Danyluk and the infamous Andreas Kiermeier. The guys then followed up on cashew cheese (FST 53) and how to reach food entrepreneurs about hazards an risk management and resources like NECFE or the NMPAN. The guys then wondered about selling food (unregulated) over the Internet, possibly for Bitcoin, and the Swiss Cheese Pervert. And Don remembered Mary's name.

Then David Gumpert (The Complete Patient) came onto the show. David has written about raw milk and food rights including "The Raw Milk Revolution: Behind America's Emerging Battle over Food Rights" and "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Food Rights: The Escalating Battle Over Who Decides What We Eat". The guys invited David to come on the show as a follow-up to FST 53, Raw Milk Hampsterdam, and David's critique of it. For audiences most interested in raw milk topics, the conversation with David begins at 25:30.

Discussion topics the group touched on included raw milk and consumer choice, including the Raw Milk Institute, David's follow-up post and the Real Food Real Talk - Raw Milk Revealed, the Minnesota study, CDC's Estimation Methods and Attribution of Foodborne Illness, The Joint FDA/Health Canada QMRA for Listeriosis from Soft-Ripened Cheese and FDA's failure to attend an IAFP sponsored raw milk meeting.

In the after dark, which begins around 1:30:00, Don and Ben talked about Evernote, Habits, Shackelton Death or Glory, and Plan 9 from Outer Space.

Food Safety Talk 54: Rubber Dingus

The show started with Don sharing his recent Systematic experience. Ben then wanted some help with a prevalence calculation, as prompted by his undergraduate lecturer Ronald Brooks. The guys then reminisced about their high school teachers before turning on the freezing weather and frozen food, thanks to AFFI-CON 2014.

In answer to a listener question on the 4-hour rule, Don shared his recent JFP paper. Similar calculations (also by Don) have been used by a Conference for Food Protection (CFP) committee to develop guidance on lack of temperature control during emergency situations. That guidance will be presented as part of the 2014 CFP.

Thanks to the book "I Wear the Black Hat", Ben has really gotten back into heavy metal, especially Metallica, while Don's been re-reading The Sandman. This got the guys into a discussion of DC Comics versus Marvel Comics.

In the IAFP History segment the guys covered the 1980's, which saw the introduction of new technologies, like vacuum packaging and irradiation, the emergence of new pathogens, such as E. coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes and Campylobacter, as well as zero tolerance).

The guys then speculated about the Salmonella Stanley outbreak linked to raw cashew cheese, before turning their attention to the Fox and Donkey meat scandal in China and the potential zoonotic food safety risks associated with foxes.

Ben then got a buzz from the 12 Surprising things you can make with a coffee pot, because it reminded of his college days. He's considering including the poaching chicken in a coffee maker as part of the dishwasher cooking research project discussed on earlier episodes. While there was plenty of wacky stuff on the interwebs over the holidays, this Wall Street Journal article about a frog in a Pret A Manger salad got Don all jumpy about Pret A Manger's knowledge about pesticides and food safety.

The guys finished the show discussing the Food Safety News article on "How to Break a Foodborne Illness Story."

In the after dark, Ben shared his work habits and this turned into a discussion of Don and Ben's favourite Starbucks. The guys then shared some movies and TV shows they like, including Saving Mr Banks, American Hustle, Back to the Future (I, II and III), Honey, I shrunk the Kids, Despicable me, Call the Midwife and Last Tango in Halifax.

Food Safety Talk 53: Raw Milk Hamsterdam

The guys battled Skype and CallRecorder, got bedazzled by The Smashing Pumpkins, a twitter buzz from Beyonce's album, and then lathered up with FDA's focus on antibacterial soaps.

They dove in to follow-up with additional information they received from Cheryl Deem from the American Spice Trade Association (ASTA) on the spice story in FST 52. Cheryl explained why ASTA didn't have a response to the FDA risk assessment as reported in this NYT article and shared a guidance document ASTA had prepared in 2011.

The discussion then turned to yet another pruno-related botulism outbreak in a Utah prison. Pruno has been discussed in FST 27 and the investigation of that outbreak has just been published in this paper, including the experimental Pruno recipe.

In the IAFP History segment, Don shared Manan Sharma's article on the 1970's, which marked changes to food consumption, food safety and environmental trends, including HACCP and microwaves. After a short 1970's detour to Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus Vol 1, Ben marveled about the advances in microwave technology, including the magnetron. While Ben's new microwave exceeded his cooking expectation, Trader Joe's cooking instructions for Mac & Cheese fell short. In contrast to Trader Joe's, who don't have a social media presence, Don did like Publix who asked for a haiku on Twitter.

Don then shared his latest irritation with Fightbac.org. It was prompted by their latest campaign called Bac Down and their lack of understanding that Listeria monocytogenes can grow at temperatures as low 32 °F. The guys challenged listeners to send in their creative Bac-themed puns for great prices!

Ben then wanted to talk about Jeffery Arthur Feehan who tried to shoplift meat in his pants. But Ben wasn't quite so worried simply because store employees put the meat back on the shelf (a big yuck factor!), but that Jeffrey took the meat to the restroom for his pants stuffing misdemeanor. Jeffrey's comment to the judges reminded Ben of a famous Animal House quote.

The discussion then turned to a recent paper on Raw Milk Consumption and illnesses. While the underreporting aspect got some publicity, Ben suggested that all the information wasn't going to change minds This had been highlighted in this article on Michigan consumers of raw milk and that's got to do with raw milk proponents not trusting health officials. Ben discussed the "The Abuela project", an example of an innovative approach to overcoming the difficulty of developing successful education campaigns. The challenge of course is how to develop a campaign when raw milk sales are illegal (as is the case in some states). Maybe a Raw Milk Hamsterdam is the solution?

Food Safety Talk 52: A Keene epidemiologist

The guys started the show dreaming about a Red Mac Pro. They then turned to the passing of Bill Keene. Bill has been mentioned in various FST episodes and was a well respected epidemiologist as seen in the articles by the Oregonian and Doug Powell. The guys then turned to their beverages, Coffee Club, Napoleon Dynamite, Homeland, and Car Talk. Ben shared his preference for Aussie Rule football and Arcade Fire's album Reflektor. The conversation then turned to Don's limited iPhone music library, Privateering and Dire Straights, which reminded Ben of Money for Nothing and WWE Wrestling (not WWF Wrestling). To finish they talked about Christmas music, Bad Religion's Christmas Songs, Coulton and Roderick's One Christmas at a Time and Horrible Christmas songs.

Ben confused IAFP's History with Bug Trivia and shared Julian Cox's information about the 1960's, and this evolved into a broader discussion about the IAFP and its membership.

The discussion then turned back to Bill Keene and some of the outbreaks he had been involved in. This included a Salmonella Panama outbreak (not to be confused with Van Halen's Panama), which was the first outbreak that was solved through the innovative use of supermarket loyalty cards and that Bill and others were sued for (the lawsuit was eventually dropped.. The guys then discussed outbreak investigation in some detail and that public health officials are damned if they do and damned if they don't name commodities and suppliers. There is of course always a risk of getting the epidemiology wrong, as was the case with Salmonella Saintpaul in peppers. Finally, Bill's investigation of a Norovirus outbreak reminded Ben of a recent Norovirus outbreak in Las Vegas.

Then Ben commented on an exchange with Chris Gunter, who was presenting on traceability for small producers at the 2013 Strawberry Expo. Chris' presentation is based on the investigation of an E. coli O157 outbreak related to strawberries, in which Bill Keene played a part.

In the after dark, the guys reflected on mortality and that we should all Enjoy Every Sandwich. And because they love him,  Rob Ford got a mention again and again.

Food Safety Talk 51: Pee on the radiator

After congratulating Don on his birthday, the guys talked about their recent travels, including 10 slaca, the 3rd Asia Pacific International Conference on Food Safety, the China International Food Safety & Quality Conference & Expo, and then they compared their favorite David Tharp stories.

In follow up to FST 49: Less Risky Bathroom Event, Don shared some information about the microbiome of urine though he couldn't comment on which way to wipe. Ben also asked Don about the hygiene of hockey locker rooms, which was prompted by Pekka Rinne's E. coli infection. The discussion about locker rooms then reminded Ben about a big Norovirus outbreak of basketball players and Don that his student Hanna will be visiting some public bathrooms as part of the NoroCore project. And somehow the conversation turned to North America's most photogenic Major Rob Ford, aka Major McCrack.

In the Food Safety History segment, Don returned to the 1940's of IAFP's history, where advances in food safety were largely due to the requirements for supplying troops in World War II. This was not the first time that great advances in food safety were made in response to military needs, see for example the invention of canning.

Ben then wanted to talk about road kill, which has earned him the title of Dr Roadkill. This discussion originated from this recent article about a planned Montana permit system for salvaging road kill. The guys didn't agree with Fred Pritzker's arguments against the system.

The discussion then turned to the FDA Risk Profile Pathogen and Filth in Spices. The guys were disappointed by the Spice Producers response. It reminded them about the importance of good risk communication. Foster Farms provided another example of 'not to get it quite right', who added to their recent woes by showing that they can't count. Don wondered about their social media strategy and why so many media managers are dipsh*ts.

The guys touched on the fall out from the Sunland bankruptcy before moving on to fishy issues surrounding the regulation and trade of catfish.

To finish off the guys prepared for Thanksgiving with a Lifehacker article on leftovers. While the article was OK, the comments made their stomachs turn. Clearly they need to continue their battle to fix the internet one comment at a time.

In the after dark the guys discussed the latest OS X Mavericks upgrade, the TV show Veep, rejecting journal articles, Ben becoming a grumpy old man, Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, End of the World, Adventure Time (Season 3)), Bronies and the Pulling the String podcast.

Food Safety Talk 50: Fifty pink flamingos

The guys started the show with a Flamingo flash back, Don's iTunes Radio "Grateful Dead" channel experiment (sans Katy Perry and Kanye West), New Girl with Zooey Deschanel, She & Him, Steve Earle, The Walking Dead, the Pulling the String podcast, and The Lone Ranger.

Don then shared how he used the Internet's way-back machine (not to be confused with Mister Peabody's WABAC Machine) to get around the black-out of US government websites.

Ben then turned to an NPR article about the Niche Meat Processor Assistance Network and a Kickstarter campaign to create an open source HACCP plan. This lead into a broader discussion of the work undertaken by extension specialists, Don's 'useless' Twitter exchange and how to find out about food safety using Let Me Google That For You.

In the Food Safety History segment, Don shared information from the IAFP History book about the 1950's and an increased focus on preventing foodborne illness.

Don then returned to his recent Twitter exchange about hand washing with @Frankly and @danbenjamin, which included this article from About.com. The article, which referenced unpublished work from 2000 by Barbara Almanza on hand sanitizers, got the guys fired up about the regulatory system and undertaking effective research on the assessing the efficacy of hand sanitizers. After taking yet another detour into the world of The Wire, the guys returned to hand sanitizers and discussed some research articles, including:

• Effectiveness of Liquid Soap and Hand Sanitizer against Norwalk Virus on Contaminated Hands

• Improved inactivation of nonenveloped enteric viruses and their surrogates by a novel alcohol-based hand sanitizer

• Comparative efficacy of seven hand sanitizers against murine norovirus, feline calicivirus, and GII.4 norovirus

• Management of Risk of Microbial Cross-Contamination from Uncooked Frozen Hamburgers by Alcohol-Based Hand Sanitizer

To finish this monster show, the guys briefly touched on Foster Farms fiasco, which they've kept on their list of things to discuss next time.

By the time the after dark came around Don was contemplating a career in pottery, while Ben favored rolling cigars for a living.

Food Safety Talk 49: Less Risky Bathroom Event

The show started with Don and Ben sharing their love for iOS7 and iTunes Radio. Ben's still on his Beach Boys trip, having recently watched Beautiful Dreamer.

The discussion then quickly turned to food safety follow up. Ben wasn't happy with his Food Safety News interview on dishwasher cooking and the message that he might have sent. Don felt that a really important aspect was the multitude of variables that can change from one dishwasher to another and hence that it was difficult be safe.

The guys then discussed some listener feedback about safety of low sugar jellies, which was related to the work of one of Don's master's student. The listener commended the work on low sugar jellies, which will help provide important information to existing Cottage Food Guidelines. The guys then delved into the effects of water activity, pH, sugar contents for the safety of the preserving process and how some products, such as the Cronut Maple Jam, fall far outside the known safe zone. This got Ben onto the Toronto Public Health investigation update on the Cronut Burger outbreak, which was related to the already risky jam not being refrigerated by the producer or the vendor who purchased it.

Don then gave Amy Jane Gruber, from Just The Tip podcast, a plug for her participation in the Fare Walk for Food Allergy. You might even hear her on a future FST episode.

In the Food Safety History segment, Don shared the initial editorial from the journal of milk technology, which while written in 1937 still resonates strongly with today's food safety activities.

Ben then described personal challenge he has urinating in his office building without getting splash back. This reminded the guys of the aerosolization in the bathroom and potential risk that this can pose.

Ben then recalled the UPI story about a Swedish man urinating on supermarket produce. While urine is normally sterile, Ben wondered about the risks. While Don couldn't quantify the risk on the spot, he noted that in HACCP terms hand washing after a bowel movement was a CCP while after peeing it could be considered a GHP. But both agreed that sick workers just shouldn't be at work.

The discussion then turned to raw milk cheeses, which was prompted by the Gort's Gouda raw milk cheese related outbreak in Canada. Don noted that the rate of inactivation in a particular product was more important that just a '60-day limit' say. That's because the final risk is integrally related to the starting concentration and the inactivation rate.

To finish off the podcast Don wanted to talk about the Food Safety News article on food date labels, which was based on this NRDC work. While Don agreed that date labels were confusing, he was also rather sceptical of the underlying work.

In the after dark, the guys talked about the new markdown format for the shownotes and planned their podcasting schedules for the next few episodes.

Food Safety Talk 48: Ninja moves to rock and roll

The guys started the show with some general chit chat about The Beer Store and The Nail Shop, the Beach Boys, including "Pet Sounds", Chuck Berry, Bed Bad Baaaaaaatz, Don's Etymotic hf5 earphones, Twitter, (including this discussion), and Barb O'Neill's great work.

Prompted by a link from Alejandro Amezquita, the guys then turned their attention to laundry and in the process gave the phrase "Eat My Shorts!" a new meaning. In the article, Lisa Ackerley discussed the hygiene of laundering. The guys recalled a couple of research articles by Chuck Gerba related to the topic (here and here). Neither Don nor Ben were particularly worried about this.

This reminded Ben of The Salt article on cooking food in the dishwasher. The guys discussed the potential risk of this approach and the sciences that is needed. Another The Salt article on washing poultry had also resulted in a large amount of social media engagement, which is something the Don and Ben are always keen to explore. And both enjoyed Alton Brown's proper method for washing out the inside of a whole poultry.

The guys then moved onto the bug trivia replacement segment called Food Safety History, in honor of a 100 years of the IAFP Journal of Food Protection. In this episode the Don covered the pre 1940 era. It all started with the Journal of Milk Technology and the connection with raw milk reminded Ben of this Toronto Star article.

Don then wanted to talk about this NY Times article, related to Salmonella in spices, and the related Food Microbiology article. Don posed Ben the questions that he was asked for a Rutgers Q&A press release on this topic and the guys compared their answers.

The guys then got fired up about the Cronut Burger-related outbreak article by Jason Tetro. Ben didn't quite agree with some of Jason's assumptions, so Ben queried the manufacturers about the parameters of the product, which Le Dolci didn't know. Ben eventually found the answer from Toronto Public Health, and was able to set the record straight.

To finish off, Don mentioned The New Disruptors podcast (earlier episodes), which featured Marisa McClellan in Episode 38 "Yes, we can!" talking about food preservation. Don was pleasantly surprised by her knowledge, including her mention of the National Center for Home Food Preservation.

In the after dark the guys continued the canning discussion, including Canvolution, Canning Across America and pink flamingos for their 50th episode.