Food Safety Talk 73: I Wish They'd Wash Their Hands More

This show starts with Don and Ben talking about the number-six item on their list of things to discuss for the episode:  Yosemite and how beautiful it is; Ben rates it at three thermometers, a rating system they invented.  Ben’s favorite thermometer is the Comark PDT300, even though someone sent him a ThermoWorks Thermapen which is Don’s favorite. Ben’s hockey team has been using thermometers when the grill sausages, this is what Ben’s contribution to the grill-outs.  Ben gets chirped for being the guy who brings the thermometer to the hockey grill. Ben is now supplying thermometers to other hockey guys.

Don talks about his lunch date with a podcast celebrity from the 5by5 network. Don tells the whole story about flying business class from Brazil to Texas then while in Texas, buying comic books and having lunch with Dan Benjamin.  Dan asked Don lots of food safety questions; they didn’t talk much about 5by5.  After this, Don attended the NoroCORE Food Virology meeting with Ben (the guys talked in real life, not just over Skype). 

The conversation then turns to food safety culture and what that really means as it is in the literature.  Ben talks about a conversation he had about food safety culture with a person trying to develop a presentation on food safety culture for farmers. Don shares an email from Doug about food safety concerns at [insert big company name] that shared a Dropbox video of text and images displaying poor food safety. The guys then talk about the difficulties of creating a food safety culture when no one thinks it’s important. Ben talks about the many things that must be in place before a food safety culture can begin to be established.

Then conversation then transitions to how to talk about food safety risks. Ben suggests talking about risks frankly. The guys then discuss the uncertainties around risks and how to discuss them.  Discussing how quantitative risk assessments are performed and applied, and the issue of uncertainty messages, also come up in conversation.  Salmonella Hypetheticum then comes up in the conversation.

Don then brings up a book that he has been reviewing about food waste.  The same food waste topic has been featured on a television show that Don’s real life friend Randy Worobo was a guest on.  The issue of food waste and risk is discussed, with a focus on lower income persons and how to manage the need to save money against food safety risk decisions.  The use of fruits and vegetables that are past their optimum date to make infused vodka brings back memories of pruno-associated C. botulinum outbreaks.  Ben appreciates Don for working the math around food safety questions and the time and effort it takes to accurately answer without just ‘no don’t do that thing’. 

Ben then brings up the issue of thawing a turkey on the counter the risks associated with that action.  Doug Powell has a paper in the Canadian Journal of Dietetics Practice Research about the calculations around thawing a turkey at room temperature.  Actually, it is ok to thaw a turkey at room temperature if you are within certain parameters.  This topic follows along with the possible Food Safety Talk tag line:  and it’s messy. 

Next, Ben wants to talk about communication, but Don talks about the decision to eat fresh produce in Brazil, and other’s decision not to eat the fresh produce while visiting.  While at meetings Ben seems to focus on following the news and typing up Barfblog posts (some people are ok with that and will resist complaining; Ben does type rather loudly).  When Ben gets really into what he is writing, he lets out really loud sighs others have noticed, but Ben hasn’t noticed his inappropriate sighing. 

Transitioning back to communication, Ben brings up a hepatitis A outbreak reported in Cumberland County Maine, but without a retail location identified. The State of Maine is taking some flack (could we call this chirping, see above) for their handling of this incident; the State of Maine tried to explain that this is because of a lack of personnel with specific expertise.  Maine has been in the news for other public health issues… a nurse breached a quarantine for Ebola by going for a bike ride.  Don suggests the public health system in Maine may be broken, Ben suggests this may be due to their having just eleven health inspectors for the whole state. 

In the After Dark session, Ben reveals the most popular Food Safety Talk episode.  The guys aren’t sure which episode they just completed, 74?, 75?, whatever it takes.  Speaking of documentaries, Don recommends Jodorowsky's Dune a documentary about a movie that was never made.

Food Safety Talk 72: It’s a cup that you fill full of poutine w/ Manan Sharma

In this episode Manan Sharma from USDA ARS fills in for Don who is away in Brazil. Manan grew up in Alabama and studied Microbiology as an undergraduate at the University of Florida. He received his M.S. and Ph.D. in Food Science from the University of Georgia where he focused on food safety microbiology.

Manan and Ben talked about formative experiences in their careers including Manan’s high school internship at Research Genetics where he had great mentors who helped him appreciate molecular and microbiology. Research Genetics was later bought out by Invitrogen).  Manan gave a shout out to his great mentors Bob Zahorchak, his first laboratory mentor, and Jim Hudson the president and CEO of Research Genetics. Manan also talked about his advisor at the University of Georgia, the great Dr. Larry Beuchat who encouraged him to take chances with his ideas and explore.

Manan talked about his first project at USDA ARS: blowing up meat using hydrodynamic pressure processing (HDP) - different from hydrostatic pressure processing. HDP, where an explosion in a vessel of water is used to create a highly energetic wave is featured in an episode of MythBusters. Manan had to obtain a license from the ATF to use the explosives needed for this technology. Manan reported that while HDP was effective at blowing the roof off of his test facility it wasn't great at inactivating of food pathogens.

Manan and Ben talked about food safety for leafy greens, particularly on the persistence of pathogens in manure and biological amendments. The guys talked about two a 2006 E. coli O157:H7/leafy green outbreaks, one connected to spinach and another linked to shredded lettuce leading to a research focus and the creation of the Center for Produce Safety, the Leafy Green Marketing Agreement. The conversation went to further impacts of big events including a 2012 Salmonella Outbreak linked to peanut butter manufactured by Sunland Farms in New Mexico which continues to impact growers. Manan talked about a paper, Bacterial Occurrence on Kitchen Hand Towels and extra-intestinal pathogenic E.coli (ExPEC). 

The guys wrap up the show with a new feature of 5 seconds, which included gems like:

What is the riskiest food you eat? 

Nirvana, Pearl Jam or Soundgarden?

Best project idea you wished you were part of?

Most important sports moment?

Food Safety Talk 71: Bungee Jumping vs. Skydiving

The fellows start the podcast by catching up on their travels, and Don talks about Brazil and Ben about Canada. Don also talked about his new podcast workflow using an app that converts webpages to PDF files and sends it directly to Dropbox.

Surprisingly, they immediately embark in a food safety conversation and Ben mentioned a recent C. perfringens outbreak in Maryland at a food safety conference where 266 people became ill presumably by eating Chicken Marsala. The actual food served was not sampled, however stool samples were positive for C. perfringens. This outbreak sparks a discussion of the work by food safety expert Frank Bryan. In response to an outbreak at a school, Frank performed an observation study, where he had the cafeteria staff redo everything identifying the risk associated with that outbreak.  The discussion turns to Denmark where three individuals died of Listeriosis after eating asparagus soup. Dr. Charles Haas tweeted the asparagus soup recipe has a dairy component and the soup may be served hot or cold which might be the risk associated with the outbreak.

Once again, they talk about cutting boards in response to Don’s Facebook post. There has been previous discussion about how many cutting boards a kitchen should have. Don who himself owns 10 cutting boards, raises a better question to how risk is managed, or when to throw away a used cutting boards. Dr. Cliver, a former professor at UC Davis, has done published on plastic and wooden cutting boards.  Ben recalled that Dr. Cliver compared raw milk and apple cider with bungee jumping and skydiving. While Don does not agree with this metaphor, he thinks that Dr. Cliver would have been a great podcast guest. Speaking of guests, the hosts updated their short list to include retired government scientists Jack Guzewich, and Carl Custer.  The show-noter for this episode also gives a shout out to Dr. Freeze who was not just an awesome podcast guest, but also an inspiration and role model for female food safety scientists.

Ben turns the talk to tech by mentioning an iTunes application that he uses to scan receipts and important notes, and Don counters with his PDF app of choice, which reminds him of his dislike of university reimbursement logistics. Don calms down to recommends music software that helps him focus.

The show wraps, up with discussion of a blog post by Doug Powell: “Who are you? Scientist, Writer, Whatever”, and Don adds that to be a good scientist, one must be a good writer, since one must write to publish, and doing experiments without publishing them is not science. Then they talk about how social media can be useful in helping in food safety, citing a restaurant in Alaska that was closed after a Facebook post led to health department inspection.

Food Safety Talk 70: A Quick Overnight Servicing

The episode begins with Ben and Don talking about the fall weather and Ben’s podcasting from home (possibly sans pants).  The discussion turns to travel and its potential impact on Don’s jury duty.  Ben has never served on a jury, but has seen many movies about trials.  Don shares that he has seen some movies about trials, notably Capote and To Kill a Mockingbird.  Both guys are fans of the movie My Cousin Vinny, which is not a book.  The pop culture talk turns to television, and Ben mentions The Americans (spelled with a c, not k, but the c does look like a hammer and sickle in the show logo).  Don has been watching Intruders, but he has barely been able to discern what the show is actually about.  Last Tango in Halifax is also good TV; with season two now available on Netflix. Ben wraps up the pop culture part of the show with a mention of a Farm Aid concert he attended with some other foodie-people and mentioned that Neil Young shared about his personal views on some farming issues at the concert.

The conversation moved to politics and cable news.  As a board member of the New Jersey Association for Food Protection, Don was part of a recent conference call regarding the organizing of a GMO foods discussion/debate with invited speakers, potentially including Robyn O’Brien. When Ben got his start in food safety, GMO foods were in the news and he mentioned a recent barfblog post on labeling of GMO foods and their unintended impacts on consumer choice. Ben talked about the summer reading program at NC State, and this years book Tomorrows Table, written by an organic farmer and a food biotechnologist. 

Ben recently participated in an IFT sponsored twitter chat on the safety of packed lunches.  Ben noted the difficulty in answering complicated questions in only 140 characters over twitter and the stress of having answered so many questions in a short period of time. The discussion turned to an article about the temperatures of school lunches, and the importance of considering both time and temperature.  Don mentioned a good FightBac webinar that covered cross contamination, and plugged his recent appearance on Academic Minute that covered some of Don’s hand washing experiments.

Ben recently received a risk-type question during an interview, and he was keen to know what Don would answer (PhD students take note: Ben plans to ask this question at every qualifying exam he goes to!).  The question was: What is the riskiest food-related thing that you do? Don provides two answers: 1) he sometimes doesn’t wash his hands for 20 s with soap; 2) sometimes he doesn’t take the temperature of meat on the grill and just believes it is ‘probably good enough’.  Ben’s answer included eating fresh restaurant salsa with lots of cilantro and eating a lot of berries. 

Ben, Don and regular podcast guest Mike Batz are all trying to eat less and exercise more, and using technology to do it.  Mike and Don are using Lose It; Ben is using My Net Diary and Runtastic. 

Don announced that he has podcast cheated on Ben by participating on another podcast, Better Know a Jackal, and the discussion moves to podcasting workflows in general.  Don is now using an app to send webpage PDFs to Dropbox.

The conversation then transitioned to some humorous turns-of-phrase that Doug and Ben like to drop into Barfblog articles.  Ben was disappointed no one commented on a witty double entendre he included in a posting about finding vomit on an airplane.  Ben has to repeat the line to Don a few times before laughter ensues. 

Food Safety Talk 69: Laura Nelson and Jay Neal

The guys start the podcast by discussing old movies that Ben has never seen, like Play Misty for Me and the Good  the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.  Talk turned to chimps, Bonzo and Bubbles (not this Bubbles). They then talked about some more recent TV shows like Californication, The Americans, Dr. Who, Intruders, Comic Book men. And yes, the food safety experts are excited about New Girl season 3 on Netflix. The topic shifted to edible marijuana issues in Colorado related to Salmonella contamination and then Don reviewed a book that he recently read, “The minotaur takes a cigarette break” to which he awarded 5 thermometers.

Don and Ben were then joined by special guests Laura Nelson and Dr. Jay Neal. Laura Nelson is Vice President of Business Development and Technical Services at Alchemy Systems, a food industry training solution provider and Jay Nelson is an Associate Professor at the University of Houston. The group had a discussion started on behavior-based food safety training including a survey that Alchemy commissioned, Global Food Training Survey Reveals New Emphasis on Worker Behavior. Laura also talked about an internal report looking at training staff  on food safety behaviors including an observation/coaching follow-up. The group talked about some of the common issues that the food industry encounters - staff may have been trained but the actual practices aren’t always happening. Laura spoke about how to get at the reasons behind why practices don’t occur - and that food safety culture is tough for some industry folks to define.

Jay talked about a training technique that includes breaking down specific processes into small pieces and how the literature is pointing to encouraging feedback and coaching along with positive reinforcement. Jay’s experiences are that managers are really important to culture and where their priorities are (sales, customer experience, food safety) will affect team performance. All four of them discussed ways to improve workers skills; Don pointed out that measuring behavior is very hard, and the group discussed some work that Jay had published in this area. Jay shared an amusing classroom social experiment where he teaches his students to empathize with non-english speakers. He assigned the students a recipe in a undecipherable font and only the manager has a clear recipe. They must try to cook together but they are not allowed to talk.

In After Dark, Ben introduced Don to the Sponge Bath, a weird way to keep kitchen sponges sanitized. Ben and Don promised to talk more on the topic in future podcasts. 

Food Safety Talk 68: We Found It In Wild Pig Feces

Don bravely did this podcast without a microphone boom.  Ben feels good despite his messy office.

Ben mentions that he is currently obsessed with the Rolling Stones and likes the Shine a Light Film, Jumpin’ Jack Flash, (the song not so much the Whoopi Goldberg spy comedy film), and the song Salt of the Earth from the Stones album Beggars Banquet.  They then discuss movies every kid needs to see before they turn thirteen such as Indiana Jones, Ghostbusters, E.T., and Diary of a Wimpy Kid and classic kids books including The Hardy Boys, Encyclopedia Brown, Three Investigators, Key to the Treasure, and A Wrinkle in Time.

The guys then discuss their recovery after IAFP, as a follow-up to FST 66. As president of IAFP Don was very busy at the conference with meetings, breakfasts, committee responsibilities, and other assorted duties.  He made the conference manageable by shirking his student poster responsibilities, not going to any talks, and skipping PDG meetings. He did however give a talk on based on a paper he has been working on with his CDC and EHS-Net (pronounced S-net) colleagues.

The guys then drift to other podcasts, especially Alton Brown’s series and in particular one he did with William Shatner.  If you like podcasts, food, Alton Brown, or William Shatner, this stupendous podcast is highly recommended for you.

Thirty-five minutes in they decide that they should talk about food safety and get to Outbreak Flashback about a 2008 Salmonella Saintpaul outbreak that affected over 1400 nationally (as per Michelle Danyluk's suggestion. Initial CDC epidemiology analysis indicated the illnesses were associated with eating tomato dishes and FDA issued a health advisory on tomatoes.  This NEJM article shows the case control studies that layout why the CDC initially thought the source was tomatoes. After tomatoes were removed from the market the illness continued and with additional data available the CDC later concluded that jalapeño and Serrano peppers were the likely source.  Epidemiologic analysis was confounded by the fact that many illnesses were from restaurants where peppers were in dishes that contained multiple ingredients.  Additionally the production and supply chain was very complex as is shown in the FDA’s traceback diagram. A key aspect of this outbreak is that it significantly harmed reputation and sales of the tomato industry, which estimates $400 million lost dollars as a result of the FDA’s erroneous health advisory. Talk turned to growers seeking indemnification or financial compensation for situations when the government agencies are incorrect about outbreaks.   

  The guys then discuss a voluntary recall by Wawona Packing Co. on fresh peaches and stone fruit.  A receiving company in Australia detected the presence of Listeria monocytogenes.  This later led to a recall of baked goods in Wegman’s supermarket chain presumably because Wegman’s baking process is not validated. There are a surprisingly high number of comments posted to the Wegman’s article in Food Safety News which caused the guys to consider if the public health implications of this recall are more significant than first thought.  For Listeria monocytogenes (LM) there are not a lot of outbreaks but rather sporadic cases; CDC estimates in 2013 there were 0.26 LM illness cases per 100,000 people in the US (for every case reported there are 2 cases not diagnosed).  The guys then discuss food safety gaps common in fresh produce including poorly executed washing processes and traceability deficiencies.

 In after dark the guys discuss that Dean Richard Linton, Dean of the NCSU College of Ag, has selected the 2014 Dean’s ice cream which is dark chocolate, tart cherries, chocolate chunks and marshmallow swirl.

Food Safety Talk 67: John Bassett

In this episode Don talks with John Bassett. The scene opens with a vivid description of a picturesque English village with pigeons pooping on the eaves and birds chirping in the background.

John starts by telling the listeners a bit about his background. He is a veterinarian by training, having earned his degree in New Zealand.  He spent seven years as a veterinary practitioner; a bit like that depicted in All Creatures Great and Small in Epsom (that’s in England). John returned to New Zealand and began a small animal practice but quickly transitioned to work for a government biosecurity laboratory in Wellington (that’s in New Zealand) where he solved problems during extended coffee breaks taken in trendy cafes. John got his start in risk assessment using the OIE approach.  John’s next career move was to industry as a risk assessor with Unilever; this took him back to England (that’s in the United Kingdom).  The guys got sidetracked and discussed the sole-crushing bureaucracy that can be found in big industry (not that there’s anything wrong with that).  John’s latest career change finds him in a new mode as food safety consultant. 

The guys discussed the recent Chobani mold incident.  From here the conversation jumped into tea.  Iced tea with added sugar was discussed as a possible growth medium for generic E. coli (special concern was expressed for sun-brewed tea) and the potential for herbal (pronounced ‘erbal’ by some) tea as a source of bacteria and maybe pathogens. 

John talked about some of his current risk assessment work, and the difficulty of making risk management decisions for low-frequency events.  John explains his recent interest in Gael Risk assessment techniques. This approach can be used for semi-quantitative risk assessment, and may have value in preventing problems like the recent horse-meat food scandal.  The value of audits in science-based food safety was questioned and discussed, and Don and John disagreed about the value of semi-quantitative risk assessments. 

Bandwidth on John’s end starts to suffer (perhaps due to John’s kids arrival home from school) so the conversation is paused briefly, while John (the poopy-head) sorts it out. 

The show resumes with a discussion on whether HACCP is risk based or not.  John notes that one key to “selling” a risk assessment might be based on saving money in the long run, perhaps from a reduced need for testing and auditing.  A discussion of the Elliott Review takes place before the guys re-iterate the need for using computerized systems for effective traceback in the food supply chain; especially ones that do not need to be linked via paper documents. 

John mentions that he will not be at IAFP 2014 due to lack of a wealthy sponsor; but he does plan to attend the IAFP European Symposium in Cardiff in 2015. Don reveals his IAFP presidential party plans (Beer, Bourbon, and BBQ), while John contemplates pork ribs somewhere closer to home. 

John mentioned the use of the sear and shave technique to produce safer raw burgers in the UK.  Don didn’t seem convinced, and will continue using his iGrill and tip sensitive digital thermometer, as suggested for use in previous Food Safety Talk episodes, “because everyone’s gotta have a hobby”.  Both guys reminisced over outbreaks of Campylobacter jejuni from seared chicken livers that occurred in the UK and USA.

In the After Dark portion, Don transitioned into talking about Doctor Who, and John explained he was late for the podcast meeting because of a meeting with McDonald’s own Bizhan Pourkomailian.

Food Safety Talk 66: The IAFP special with Dr. Freeze

Ben and Don were on location in Indianapolis at the International Association for Food Protection annual meeting and the show kicks off with Don’s discussion of his script and playbook for the IAFP meeting. 

Don ate dinner at a place (Harry and Izzy's) that is not St. Elmo’s Fire and the guys decided that Rob Lowe looks the same as he did in 1986. Ben discussed his rule of three drinks, and Don does not subscribe to the same rule - which led to some tiredness.

The guys were joined by Dr. Freeze who is not to be confused by Canada’s king of icees, Mr. Freeze. In discussing Ben’s new found obsession with the number 3 (like Jack White), Don shares 5ives, Merlin Mann’s list of fives (including #3 on the list of 5 guitarists who rock the three-note solo).

Don’s continued use of his IAFP playbook as a prop leads to a discussion of Dungeons and Dragon’s, Canadianisms and the renaming of IAFP as science prom (where Don and Ben may take their bromance to the next level).

Don alluded to the Florida Association for Food Protection’s requirement that Don dress up as a roach. A talk of accents let to a discussion of one of Ben’s current obsessions, FX’s Fargo with Martin Freeman.

The group recapped Indianapolis happenings including Food Safety Talk guest Bill Marler's Ivan Parkin Lecture and the Oregonian’s Lynne Terry filing stories and tweeting from the meeting. The discussion went into some of the opportunities and challenges of having media actively attending sessions. The topic turned to non-traditional media, the 24 hour news cycle and clickbait lists including Buzzfeed. Don told a story about how a clip of him talking about food safety in China ended up on Al Jazeera.

An age old discussion about the media (and others) getting science wrong led to Ben talking about an anonymous Twitter feed called IAFP no context. The discussion went into the War of 1812 (also known as the one that Canada won).

In the After Dark the group talked about the Grateful Dead, handy folks and carpenters.  

Food Safety Talk 65: All My Ports are Engaged

In this episode, Ben is absent, but Don is not alone. Mike Batz, Assistant Director of Food Safety Programs, Emerging Pathogen Institute at the University of Florida, is a guest on the show. He appeared not once, but twice on the podcast before.

Don and Mike start by talking a little about their travels, then, they quickly move to a discussion on the Chobani Yogurt recall. The news article leaves Mike unsure whether Mucor circinelloides was pathogenic to both animals and humans. A brief digression about podcast listening speed reveals that Batz listens at 1.5 speed while Don is more civilized. Returning to yogurt, they discuss the original mBio article. Don concludes the study did not provide enough evidence to show M. circinelloides is truely pathogenic to humans.

Don asks Mike about a psychology experiment done by Facebook where they manipulated users feeds. Mike was disappointed by Facebook’s methodology since the study never requested an informed consent from the users. They then rambled about again about their various and sundry international travels. Mike resided close to the Rijks Museum (that's in Amsterdam) for a while and Schaffner shared his experience in Finland (including reindeer tartare) and New Zealand (and beef tartare).

Next, they talked about a document from the FAO marketed as providing a list of the top 10 foodborne parasites ). To continue, they discussed seasonal food safety tips. While Mike confessed to not always follow his own food safety recommendations, Don revealed he is reluctant to eat a cut cantaloupe by a stranger.

Soon after, the discussion shifted to antibiotics in meat. Both agreed that the issue is quite complicated and there is not a straight forward answer.

They concluded the show with a discussion on cross contamination including cutting boards, artisanal cheese and the 5 second rule. Don recommended plastic cutting board for meat and wood cutting board for any other food types.

Food Safety Talk 64: The One With Doug

In a special episode recorded back before Ben went on summer hiatus, the guys invite Doug Powell on for a chat.  According to Wikipedia (which is never wrong), Dr. Douglas Powell was raised in Brantford, Ontario (that's in Canada). Doug describes himself as a former professor of food safety and the publisher of barfblog.com. He is passionate about food, has five daughters, and is an OK goaltender in pickup hockey.

These days Doug is been thinking a lot about soul, and given the Venn diagram of their intersecting musical tastes this leads to a discussion of Mr. Soul and a place where even Richard Nixon has got soul. Any discussion of music and soul leads to a mention of the classic Soul Man, which Don knows from the Blues Brothers movie, and Doug knows from the original version by Sam and Dave. Doug is thinking about soul because of his monthly writing gig for the Texas A&M Center for food safety. The piece he was ruminating on during the call led to a post called "It's Gotta Have Soul" where his central thesis is that most people talking about food safety lack relevance; they lack soul, and fail to resonate.

After the guys bid Doug good night, the discussion turns to managing graduate students, task tracking software like OmniFocus, distracting diversions like Flappy Bird, managing references using Sente or Mendeley and a brief look forward to this special events which are coming, or rather were coming, at the IAFP annual meeting.

Food Safety Talk 63: The Great One

Don and Ben have Skype issues but this time it was actually Don. Don announced that there will be help for people like Ben who aren’t so good at managing their time and attention at IAFP 2014, with Merlin Mann presenting on Wednesday in a special lunch session. The guys estimate about 0.1% of IAFP annual meeting attendees will be excited to see him - including Ben and Don, and probably Batz. Ben mentions his excitement that Professor Dr. Donald Schaffner, PhD was name checked on Back to Work Episode 173.

The first mention of The Wire comes at 12 minutes in when the guys give a shout out to Baltimore resident Manan Sharma who has mentioned that this is his favorite part of the show.

In follow-up from Episode 61, friend of the show MDD says that there are not rats in Alberta  Ben and Don remark while there may not be any snakes in New Zealand and Ireland (although Ben thinks that Don is thinking of potatoes) there are rats in small pockets in Alberta. While Alberta has had a rat eradication program since the 1950s, a colony of Norwegian rats, of Roanoke Island proportion, was found in Medicine Hat (that's in Canada) in 2012 and 2014. Ben tells Don that he wears big pockets to avoid rats, and that and on a pilgrimage to Edmonton to see a statue of The Great One, his pockets were not checked.

The guys then talk about a question from IAFP’s Dina (not Dinah). Dina asked the guys to discuss their thoughts on a recent JFP paper about non-intact steak cooking using temperature, flipping/turning and different cooking methods. The practical, take-home message (as dictated using Dragon Dictate) was that that flipping and covering with a lid (which allows cooking to occur both through conduction and convection heat) and using a thermometer for all cuts of meat helps reduce risk.

Ben talked a bit about some future work that his group is doing looking at mechanically tenderized beef messaging, perception and behavior - including cubed steak.  Cube steak is sometimes made by slapping two pieces of meat together and running through a cuber - although not according to Wikipedia, which is never wrong. The discussion moved to steak eating preferences as detailed by FiveThirtyEight Nate Silver’s cadre of numbers nerds who dissect a lot of pop culture and sports questions.

The guys then both talked about message variability projects they have going on. Ben’s group is looking at  cook book recipes (and how the messages and instructions in the culinary world often are not evidence-based). And Don’s group is looking at messaging on handwashing signs, something that his second favorite graduate student Dane, is undertaking.

In outbreak flashback the guys talked about 1854’s Broad St. Pump  cholera outbreak. Using a map and analyzing cases of human disease, John Snow, largely recognized as one of the founders of epidemiology, created a blueprint for the next generation of disease hunters. Removing the handle on the pump is commonly thought to have ended the outbreak except that modern epi-curve analysis suggests that the outbreak was already on the decline. Ben’s favorite part was what one of his undergraduate professors, Anthony Clarke talked about in class 15 years ago: the monks in a local monastery did not get sick because they didn’t drink the water, just home brewed beer.

The guys then ended the show talking about an outbreak linked to food service hamburgers made by Wolverine Packing. Or is that Wolverine Packing with it's adamantium slicers and grinders? In either case, It’s unclear whether illnesses are linked to undercooked burgers or cross contamination - although anecdotally undercooked burgers have been reported. One of Ben’s graduate student’s Ellen Thomas has been working on a project related directly to this type of product, where secret shoppers have been speaking with servers at burger-serving family style restaurants throughout the U.S. The results of the project will be shared at IAFP in Indianapolis.

In after dark the guys chuckle and guffaw about Ben’s Beatles references, time and attention management, and Tony Robbins who Ben thinks is in prison. But he’s not. He was thinking of James Arthur Ray. Don mentions that the author Kurt Vonnegut (who explains the universal shapes of storytelling) has a memorial library in Indianapolis.

Food Safety Talk 62: Uncomfortably Numb

The show opens with Don talking about his visit to the dentist right before the podcast. The conversation turns to Don's dentist and his job satisfaction, and on to other important jobs, like airline pilots. Ben then talks about his talk in Nashville about behavior change and his first visit to the the Conference for Food Protection, which evolves into a discussion of handwashing and hot air hand dryers. The outbreak flashback segment is in the parking lot this week, but a listener question from the Bob and Melinda Gates foundation is not. Before the question is answered however, disco music, video games, author Alan Moore, the movie Mystery Men, the Keith Richards biography and YYZ must all be discussed. Eventually they get around to answering Bob's question regarding recalls and discuss the difference between recalls and market withdrawals From there the discussion moves to a Hershey's soy lethicin recall in Canada, FDA's reportable food registry, a Clostridium perfringens outbreak and a recent article from The Acheson Group blog. The show ends with a Pink Floyd reference, and in the After Dark, Don discusses the hazel app on his Mac.

Food Safety Talk 61: I Needed a Semenko

The show opened with a long discussion of various philosophical issues relating to careers in Academia, followed by a brief diversion into gutter cleaning drones, comiXology, and the new TV show Silicon Valley.

Ben shared he has been listening to Gord Downie, The Sadies, And The Conquering Sun. Downie will be familiar to FST podcast listeners as the Canadian rock musician, writer, occasional actor who is the lead singer and lyricist for the Canadian rock band The Tragically Hip. Don noted that he had backed the new Lee 'Scratch' Perry Album kickstarter project.

In the follow up segment the guys noted that a new show noter was still needed, before moving on to a listener question from Jon Kimble about the protective effect of wine in foodborne disease outbreaks. Ben also talked about his experiences at a raw milk conference he attended in Canada. Fortunately for Ben, Dave Semenko was not needed.

The Outbreak flashback segment of the show flash all the way back to the 1981 listeriosis outbreak linked to coleslaw made from cabbage fertilized with sheep manure. Ben noted that sheep were also one among many possible Listeria sources in Jensen farms outbreak, as also indicated by fashion plate and Apple guy, Dr. Lawrence Goodridge quoted in the story.

Ben wanted to talk about Hep A and Tevana, when the show finally started, because he is a mall rat. This led to a discussion about Hepatitis A vaccinations for Foodservice workers. While it might not be "cost effective", it still might be the right thing to do.

The discussion then turned to sous vide cooking, and a new product on the market, and Don's interactions with the reviewed.com reviewers as well as the product manufacturers in the comments. Don was less successful in leaving comments on a recent sous vide NPR blog post, but thanks to Doug, Don was able to weigh in on barfblog.

Don then quizzed Ben (who is from Canada), regarding whether he now lives in the South.

The show ended with a mention of the passing of noted self experimenter Seth Roberts, including the predictable reaction from hacker news. More on his cause of death has been provided on his blog, posted after FST recorded.

Food Safety Talk 60: Pour maple syrup on it

The guys start off the show discussing starting a food safety talk live morning show under the pseudonyms of Ace and Lefty. Ben tells Don that he’s watching an old Judd Aptow show, Undeclared  on Netflix. Don says he doesn’t even have time to watch Ben’s favorite Canadian show, the oft-mentioned The Newsroom. The guys then quickly celebrate their AARP episode birthday and talk about Ben’s dad love of medieval times and Medieval Times. Ben announces that he’s on his way to his hometown of Port Hope, Ontario (that’s in Canada) and will be watching Float Your Fanny Down the Ganny - a celebration commemorating a flood. Ben shares a recent dream that he had about the Conference for Food Protection and being uninvited.

In outbreak flashblack Don and Ben talked about a 2004 Salmonella outbreak associated with sliced roma tomatoes sold through Sheetz gas station delis. The Sheetz outbreak was notable from a lawsuit  and communication standpoint. Although it looked at as a teachable moment, Don and Ben evaluated and critiqued the messages that the Partnership for Food Safety Communication put out at the time of the outbreak.

The guys then talked about a restaurant inspection media exposes and their impacts, Don and Ben agree that they don’t always get it right but have a place. Ben’s friends Jim Chan and Dominic Losito both retired Public Health Inspectors, pulled back the curtain on inspections on a CBC show, Marketplace - that Ben also appeared on in 2008. Their discussion continued to disclosing and translating restaurant inspection results for the masses. Don provided some insight into his ongoing Rutger’s cafeteria food safety project and the potential impacts of having extra outside eyes on running a kitchen -- supplemented with micro sampling.

Ben then put Don to the test on a question he received on using vinegar as a sanitizer in a food business. Don passed the test.

In a short after dark, Don suggested a puzzle game, Monument Valley for Ben to check out.

Food Safety Talk 59: You're thinking of Goldmember

Don and Ben start the show talking about producing stuff, productivity, procrastinating and the excitement of being the bottleneck. Don then spoke about his love of treadmill writing using Dragon Dictate software. David Allen’s two-minute rule and Omnifocus (not to be confused with the five-second rule) also made another appearance. Don also hinted that a certain productivity expert may make an appearance at IAFP 2014. This information made Ben get excited and talk really fast. 

Ben talked about watching a documentary about The Improv and took away that food safety communicators and some comedians both benefit from studying storytelling. The guys talked about blocking off specific times in the day to practice your craft (whatever it is).

Don and Ben announced that the infamous Andreas would be leaving the show as master show note person. Don and Ben wished Andreas the best, made him a lifetime member of the Food Safety Talk family and expressed their gratitude to him as helping grow the show. He will be missed. Don also talked about Scott Hurd and Wilber Feagan, who both passed away within 24hrs. 

In the new segment, Outbreak Flashback, the guys discussed the 2007 Castleberry’s botulism outbreak and it’s impacts. Don stepped through an FDA investigation report that Bill Marler had on his blog and highlighted some of the lessons that can be taken away for microbiologists as well as industry members. 

The guys happened to be in Orlando at the same time and didn’t connect with each other in person. Don was speaking at the Florida Association for Food Protection and Ben was visiting with the National Registry of Food Safety Professionals folks about non-traditional food manager training.

Don and Ben then discussed a question about a New Jersey entrepreneur making and selling granola at a Pennsylvania farmers’ market.

At the end of the show Don gave Ben a statistics test on confidence intervals from Andrew Gelmen’s blog. Andrew is also the source of this excellent paper on storytelling.

In after dark the guys talked about green jellybeans, acne and setting up projects with a statistics person in advance.

Food Safety Talk 58: Where's my wallet?

The guys started the show admiring Ben's new computer, and his House of Clay beer, before talking about Don and Victoria Backham's treadmill desks, Ricky Gervais bathtub photos, dressing up like a realtor, and confidence intervals.

Don and Ben then welcomed Bill Marler to the show. Bill's notoriety started with the Jack-in-the-Box outbreak (documented in the book Poisoned). The discussion moved to the Jensen farm legal case, in particular, the criminal aspects of unknowingly shipping contaminated food and the involvement of service providers, i.e. auditors. The guys also discussed the impact on apportioning liability as a result of the recent North Carolina limiting farmers liability law. The conversation then turned to Salmonella and Foster Farm's chicken and no one could understand why there hadn't been a recall.

The guys then discussed Listeria and cantaloupes, including CDC's recommendations and Don's paper on "Modeling the growth of Listeria monocytogenes on cut cantaloupe, honeydew and watermelon."

After a short detour via the AVN Awards, Bill got the chance to explain why he generally doesn't take on norovirus cases and the lengths he goes to before taking on a case, using the Townsend Farm Hepatitis A outbreak as an example. The conversation then turned to auditors and what the impact of the Jensen Farm litigation case might be.

After saying farewell to Bill, Don and Ben talked about podcasting, including Lex Friedman, and Libsyn's Rob Walch.

In the after dark the guys chatted about House of Cards, True Detective, Ben's quirky Aussie accent, Malaysia Airlines flight 370 and Lost.

Food Safety Talk 57: My Own Tea Mule

The guys started the show by sharing some family traditions including watching Jeopardy and drinking Rooibos tea.

They then discussed some raw milk questions posed by raw milk producer. Don suggested that there was specific scientific evidence to answer many of them. He also wondered about the scientific basis of some of the information presented in a recent RMI webinar.

Don then shared that he'll be podcast cheating again on an upcoming Real Food Real Talk episode on cottage food. This episode is now published here. The guys then transitioned to a recent cheese related Listeriosis outbreak affecting members of the Hispanic community. While health authorities have released some information on illnesses and the product there are many questions that are still to be answered.

After a false start and then covering the last part of the IAFP History, the 2000's, Ben put out a call to listeners for important outbreaks and food safety landmarks that Ben and Don could discuss in the upcoming Outbreak Flashback segment. It will be groovy. And have a disco theme.

The guys then turned to pizza and Alton Brown, who Don went to see live. Alton had dropped the pizza base before cooking it and that got Don worried about what message this was sending. Ben was amused by Alton's Twitter feed and fascinated by his earlier career. While on the pizza topic, Ben found some really stretched science reporting of this research article. The press release reminded the guys of Betteridge's law of headlines. The answer is always no.

The discussion of media reminded Don of this Andrew Gelman post about how to get your university press release reprinted by The Washington Post. Don concluded that the best practices for engaging people are also despicable. Ben suggested sometimes science-types need to go to where people are engaged and sort of play the same game. To quote Merlin Mann from 43 Folders: "Joining a Facebook group about creative productivity is like buying a chair about jogging."

To finish off, Ben raised the issue of consumers not following label instructions, as was the case with E. coli in Nestle Toll House Cookie Dough. Ben wanted to know how consumers learn about products and how to use those products.

In the after dark the guys covered Picturelife, and Siri not having what Don was looking for, which he posted on Facebook.  

Food Safety Talk 56: Damned hard to make safe food

The guys started the show following up on the previous episode, the write up on David Gumpert's website and the comments on the Internet. Theresa Lam also reached out wanting to know more about the risks associated with bootleg versus regulated raw milk.

Despite raw milk drinker's hatred of epidemiologists, Don confessed that maybe he wants to be an epidemiologist, while Ben noted that he has admired them ever since the Jalapeno Saintpaul outbreak. Don also praised Petran, White and Hedberg, for their efforts to identify what items in a restaurant inspection were predictive of the possibility of an outbreak, and Ben's comments to USA Today on the topic.

A quick round of "I think you're thinking of" with Howard Dean, and Roger Dean, not to be confused with Roger Dean followed. The guys then hopped back in time with the whizzinator before moving on to food storage mistakes and tortilla safety as prompted by Listener John Kimble.

The guys covered the 1990's in the IAFP history segment, which also featured a discussion of 808, the Beastie Boys and the speed of Joe Walsh's Maserati. Ben identified the 1990's with the adoption of PFGE and rapid methods, while Don though the Mega Regs characterized the time. Ben recalled a recent discussion with Cathy Cutter about meat processing and how HACCP shaped other food safety regulations.

The discussion then turned to Norovirus, prompted by a couple of recent noro outbreaks on the "Explorer of the Seas" and the Caribbean Princess, the boat that Chris Gunter boarded. Unfortunately, Chris couldn't find out whether the hand sanitizer on the ship was the one that works, though he was assured that it was "alcohol based". Ben wrapped up the noro discussion with the MoChunk resort outbreak. The guys talked about Netflix in the short after dark.

Food Safety Talk 55: Damn Ignorant PhDs

But I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me.

- Richard Feynman, 1918-1988

The guys started the show with a teaser about a guest later in the show and reminisced about past guests Mike Batz, Chris Gunter, Michelle Danyluk and the infamous Andreas Kiermeier. The guys then followed up on cashew cheese (FST 53) and how to reach food entrepreneurs about hazards an risk management and resources like NECFE or the NMPAN. The guys then wondered about selling food (unregulated) over the Internet, possibly for Bitcoin, and the Swiss Cheese Pervert. And Don remembered Mary's name.

Then David Gumpert (The Complete Patient) came onto the show. David has written about raw milk and food rights including "The Raw Milk Revolution: Behind America's Emerging Battle over Food Rights" and "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Food Rights: The Escalating Battle Over Who Decides What We Eat". The guys invited David to come on the show as a follow-up to FST 53, Raw Milk Hampsterdam, and David's critique of it. For audiences most interested in raw milk topics, the conversation with David begins at 25:30.

Discussion topics the group touched on included raw milk and consumer choice, including the Raw Milk Institute, David's follow-up post and the Real Food Real Talk - Raw Milk Revealed, the Minnesota study, CDC's Estimation Methods and Attribution of Foodborne Illness, The Joint FDA/Health Canada QMRA for Listeriosis from Soft-Ripened Cheese and FDA's failure to attend an IAFP sponsored raw milk meeting.

In the after dark, which begins around 1:30:00, Don and Ben talked about Evernote, Habits, Shackelton Death or Glory, and Plan 9 from Outer Space.

Food Safety Talk 54: Rubber Dingus

The show started with Don sharing his recent Systematic experience. Ben then wanted some help with a prevalence calculation, as prompted by his undergraduate lecturer Ronald Brooks. The guys then reminisced about their high school teachers before turning on the freezing weather and frozen food, thanks to AFFI-CON 2014.

In answer to a listener question on the 4-hour rule, Don shared his recent JFP paper. Similar calculations (also by Don) have been used by a Conference for Food Protection (CFP) committee to develop guidance on lack of temperature control during emergency situations. That guidance will be presented as part of the 2014 CFP.

Thanks to the book "I Wear the Black Hat", Ben has really gotten back into heavy metal, especially Metallica, while Don's been re-reading The Sandman. This got the guys into a discussion of DC Comics versus Marvel Comics.

In the IAFP History segment the guys covered the 1980's, which saw the introduction of new technologies, like vacuum packaging and irradiation, the emergence of new pathogens, such as E. coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes and Campylobacter, as well as zero tolerance).

The guys then speculated about the Salmonella Stanley outbreak linked to raw cashew cheese, before turning their attention to the Fox and Donkey meat scandal in China and the potential zoonotic food safety risks associated with foxes.

Ben then got a buzz from the 12 Surprising things you can make with a coffee pot, because it reminded of his college days. He's considering including the poaching chicken in a coffee maker as part of the dishwasher cooking research project discussed on earlier episodes. While there was plenty of wacky stuff on the interwebs over the holidays, this Wall Street Journal article about a frog in a Pret A Manger salad got Don all jumpy about Pret A Manger's knowledge about pesticides and food safety.

The guys finished the show discussing the Food Safety News article on "How to Break a Foodborne Illness Story."

In the after dark, Ben shared his work habits and this turned into a discussion of Don and Ben's favourite Starbucks. The guys then shared some movies and TV shows they like, including Saving Mr Banks, American Hustle, Back to the Future (I, II and III), Honey, I shrunk the Kids, Despicable me, Call the Midwife and Last Tango in Halifax.